Interview by the Ph[r]ases programme team



The Austrian playwright Thomas Bernhard calls himself “ein Störenfried” (a troublemaker). Does his work justify this label?

Thomas Bernhard has the fame of a “rebel”, a “mannerist of grief”, a “cheerful tragedian”, a “virtuoso of despair”, a “misanthrope”, a “provocative” writer, labels faithful to the theme approached and to the style of writing prose and theatre. In the world of the stage, as the Austrian playwright creates it, the characters are overwhelmed by tragicomic situations and must finally recognize the failure to which they are subjected. The specific method of exposing the process of disintegration and failure consists of verbal and gestural stereotyping, and puppet automatisms, achieved by emphasizing tragicomic, grotesque situations, close to hilarity. Bernhard's speciality is the relationships of sick interdependence, harmful attachments, and infirmities that condition themselves to annihilate themselves in the end; in fact, a “love-hate” psychoanalysis, the finality of these relationships is always a failure. These are my thoughts and observations set out in the afterword entitled Thomas Bernhard – the theatre of failure, from the volume Thomas Bernhard: Immanuel Kant, published by the Diacritic Publishing House in Timișoara in 2013.

If we refer to the term "Störenfried", it overlaps with the labels conferred on the Austrian writer, he is a rebel who provokes through the theme approached, by fictionalizing various social and political situations and truths, which has led to several scandals, even lawsuits from people who have "recognised themselves" in his writings. But as the writer has the right to fictionalize, to transform reality from his perspective, it is obvious that he has won all the trials, or the accusations have been withdrawn... I would not associate “ein Störenfried” with the meaning of “a problem child”, but rather with “troublemaker”, Bernhard being the controversial author who disturbed the peace in Austria by his vehement position towards “-ism(s)”, i.e. neo-Nazism, Catholicism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia, racism, extremism.

The characters in his works often give the feeling of isolation/alienation. Why does Thomas Bernhard explore such topics in his writings?

The characters of Bernhard are often the mirror or even the reflection of the playwright's frustrations, of the traumas he has experienced. The autobiographical vein is always present, both in his prose and in his dramatic texts. If we refer to the central theme of his dramatic texts, it captures the isolation and failure of the individual in an indifferent, meaningless world, in a desperate attempt to overcome the self-imposed isolation that leads him to failure, madness or even self-destruction. The characters are generally isolated, and I refer especially to the male characters, because they dominate Bernhard's world, with a few exceptions, one of them being Am Ziel (Destination). It can be noted that the heroes are loners, complexed, destroyed by physical or mental suffering, who refuse to communicate with their peers, condemn themselves through their behaviour to helplessness and fatalism. Most of the central characters are represented by perfectionists, animated and obsessed with unrealizable, utopian ambitions, the result being that they are crushed by the burden of their own daring. And we come again to one of the keywords for Bernhard's plays: failure.

Literary criticism often places him in a nihilistic area. Can we better understand Thomas Bernhard by reading the Nihilists?

In order to understand Thomas Bernhard, it is preferable to read his texts, narratives, and dramas, then to read his biography, which completes and also represents a key to receiving his work. Even if the Austrian playwright was a very good connoisseur of philosophy, from Kant to Wittgenstein, from Nietzsche to Heidegger, including Cioran, the nihilistic note derives rather from his pessimistic position on history, because one can deduct from the relationship Austria = Catholicism = Nazism, a relationship that motivates the vehemence with which he attacks the Austrian mentality, especially anti-Semitism. The play Heldenplatz (Heroes’ Square) is the most relevant from the point of view of the message because it is placed between political allegory, realistic theatre, with critical accents and shades of parody – a theatre of uncomfortable introspection, in which the main character is, in fact, conscience. The endless discussions of the protagonists focus on the tragedy produced, I refer to the annexation of Austria by Nazi Germany in 1938, celebrated in the Heroes' Square in Vienna. Bernhard draws attention to the danger that history may repeat itself if radicalization trends are not stopped, taking into account the known conflicts in Austria with the representatives of the FPÖ party (Freiheitliche Partei Österreichs = Freedom Party of Austria), at that time, the most famous protagonist being Jörg Haider. From here derives the pessimistic thinking on the course of history, because this populist party of extreme right of nationalist-authoritarian orientation has gained many followers over time. In the face of this state of affairs, there is no other form to react than that of protest and rebellion, even if it manifests itself in a radical form. This explains the playwright's drastic reaction, his revolt that manifests itself through provocation, finding its most effective form of manifestation on the theatre stage.



Where should the discovery of Thomas Bernhard's work start, especially for young people? What texts would you recommend?

First of all, I would recommend reading the stories and dramas of Thomas Bernhard, those that capture the micro-theme of his novels and plays. Some have even been translated into Romanian: Yes, Extinction, The Theatre Maker (correct it would be: The Theatre Creator ), Cold, Immanuel Kant, In hora mortis, Simple complicated, Old masters – the titles of the volumes that have appeared at the Art, Călăuza, Diacritic, European Institute and Paralela 45 publishing houses. Let's not forget that Bernhard has been present on the theatre stages in Romania since 1979, but especially in recent years, there has been a real boom of productions with his plays. In this regard, I have undertaken a study, and thus I can list a large part of the staging, which are included to a certain point in the volume with the translation of the play Immanuel Kant (2013): Minetti and Before Retirement at the Teatrul Mic in Bucharest, The Power of Habit and Before Retirement at the “Mihai Eminescu” National Theatre in Timișoara, The Hunting Society at the Hungarian State Theatre in Cluj, The Power of Habit at the "Sică Alexandrescu" Theatre in Brașov, SatisFUCKtion (Destination) at the Teatrul Foarte Mic in Bucharest, Immanuel Kant at the “Csiky Gergely” Hungarian State Theatre and performance-reading at the “Eugen Todoran” Central University Library in Timișoara, The Creator of Theatre at the ACT Theatre in Bucharest.


Am Ziel. A destination? An ambition? A purpose? (all these nouns stand for the possible translation of the German word "Ziel")

In fact, the phrase “Am Ziel” would rather identify with reaching the destination, from an etymological point of view. But in the context of Bernhard's play, one can interpret it faster with “purpose” – because none of the characters succeeds in achieving their much-desired purpose in life. In reality, we are dealing with the history of a family, the destiny of which is told in the form of the monopolizing monologue of the mother, which gives her security and the power to control everything that happens around her. Speech itself functions as a language stabilization mechanism, and the entire atmosphere oscillates between comedy and tragedy: the human despair around which everything focuses. The appearance of the young writer, who is invited to spend a few days at the seaside with the two protagonists, the mother and the daughter, causes anxiety, a strong allusion reflected by the play of this playwright entitled Rette sich wer kann (Save yourselves if you can).


The central character of Am Ziel (Destination), the mother (played by the actress Dörte Lyssewski) seems to be engaged in a monologue rather than in a dialogue. What effect does the author want to achieve through this type of approach?

In the play Am Ziel, the verbal comic and the irony introduce the entire action, which gradually takes on tragicomic nuances. It is noted again that Bernhard varies one of his central themes with X-ray vision and grotesque-comic frenzy: the self-hatred of his protagonists, for the lives they perceive as hopeless traps. The “monstrous mother”, portrayed by the Austrian playwright, takes on deep dimensions and is virtuously interpreted by the actress Dörte Lyssewski. The two anonymous protagonists, simply called “mother” and “daughter”, are in a relationship of constant dependence, moving for thirty-three years between their villa in the Dutch city and their summer residence in Katwijk, on the seafront. Bernhard thus takes the opportunity to give the floor to the dominant mother, because she controls the entire action, which grows from reproach to reproach – thus, she defames the world, her own family (her husband and her disabled and deeply hated son), her daughter, the theatre evening with the premiere of a play by a young dramatic writer that she had invited to the holiday residence. And so, it turns out that none of the three protagonists achieve their "goal" – the mother cannot part with her past that she hates, the daughter cannot free herself from the dominant mother, and the writer cannot engage in a relationship with the daughter. So, they all sink into passivity and get caught up in their addictions and monotonous existences. Bernhard's play can be read and understood in many ways: as a mother-daughter psychological drama, generational drama, matrimonial drama or as a poetic meta-play on theatrical creation.


Thomas Bernhard grew up without a father, suffered from various health problems and had a tumultuous life, being forced to become a member of the Hitler Youth (Hitlerjugend). This way, can such autobiographical elements be found in Am Ziel?

Am Ziel captures certain autobiographical elements, first of all, if we consider the geographical area - the Netherlands –, the country where Thomas Bernhard was born and where the action of the present play takes place. The childhood traumas and the disease are topos present in the play, if we think about the infirmity of the son, respectively the mother-daughter relationship that reminds us of the Pianist (Die Klavierspielerin) of the Austrian author Elfriede Jelinek.
Regarding Bernhard's joining the Hitler youth: this aspect is not discussed in the play, instead it becomes a theme vehemently and insistently discussed in relation to right-wing extremism in other dramatic texts, as the playwright's hatred of Nazism and its contemporary forms of manifestation are well-known.

Reading Thomas Bernhard, we discover a complex relationship with the Austrian society, the playwright expresses criticism towards it. Does it reflect in Am Ziel?

Thomas Bernhard's work is part of the literary canon that addresses specific Austrian issues, but also themes that are far from the Austrian context. His plays carry with them the Austrian tradition, history and ideology, which address and concern both European and non-European audiences. It is known that the writer repeatedly rebels against anti-Semitism in Europe, against the Nazi past, against the possible return of this power, directly criticizes the Austrian society, ignorance, passivity, populism, etc. Instead, Am Ziel being set up/located in the Netherlands, the critical aspects are only indirect allusions to the Austrian reality.


The text Am Ziel was written in 1981 and premiered the same year at Salzburger Festspiele. How can you explain the success of the text in Austria, even 42 years after its appearance?

Thomas Bernhard is an uncomfortable author, but his dramatic texts are a touchstone and a challenge for directors and actors. The presence on the world stages is due to the unmistakable style of the Austrian playwright.


Director Matthias Rippert creates a static show with few props and little action, and the focus is on the text. Is this directorial style characteristic of the Austrian stage?

The staging of the young director Matthias Rippert, present with his directing proposals in various theatres in Germany and at the Mülheimer Theatertage theatre festival, stands out in the Burgtheater's production through minimalism. The static element derives from the so-called “Sprechtheater” (spoken theatre), the action being extremely reduced, highlighted by the director's vision, who preferred a minimalist formula for all levels (scenography, lights, sound). Only the word, the power of the word, is the one that places itself in the foreground and puts to the test the actors who take over these impressive scores, because Bernhard gives up the interpunctuation, which gives a certain freedom, but also requires extreme concentration. The actress Dörte Lyssewski faithfully renders the specific Bernhardian style, that repetitive and deeply musical structure, in which each idea is caught, followed, and developed in a crescendo, like an infinite spiral, leading to paroxysm. Obviously, Bernhard's dramatic texts allow, despite the specific minimalism of the action, memorable, electrifying performances, if we think about the staging of Dabija with the Theatre Creator, a real jewel that remains in the repertoire of the theatre Teatrul ACT since 2001, as the show has become an ars dramatica of this independent theatre.

Regarding the directorial style characteristic of the Austrian stage, I can only emphasize the fact that each director comes with his own vision, with his own proposals. This is, in fact, where the fascination for those directors who know how to challenge every time through their original vision derives from.

Does the Romanian audience resonate with this type of show/text? What is the target audience?

The audience is the one who can resonate or not with a show. The subjective factor is the one that decides on the reception. As I have already mentioned, Thomas Bernhard is a playwright known to the Romanian audience due to the various performances of his plays, so I would conclude that he addresses all theatre lovers, even if his texts are more difficult, demanding, sometimes uncomfortable, but suitable for the stage, because “theatre is anachronism. It's all caricature”, as one of Bernhard's protagonists argues.

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"Ph[r]ases"- Creative Formulas is a programme conceived by Diana Katharina and Daniela Șilindean together with the team of the German State Theatre Timișoara, dedicated to the theatre chronicle within the Eurothalia 2023 European Theatre Festival, held between 20-30 September 2023, financed by the National Cultural Program Timișoara - European Capital of Culture in 2023.